I think this is a really cool idea!

I said "yes" to everything, but in truth I'm not very familiar with what a LIMS entails. Happy to learn, though. :-) Would beginners like me still be able to participate, or would it really be most appropriate for more advanced icon makers? It sounds like it might be a great learning experience (whether or not it's appropriate for my level), and I'd be happy to help in any way I can.

Yay! I'm not the only one who wants one. I enjoyed my LIMS experience but I wasn't in it to "win."

Whether LIMS is appropriate for someone has *nothing* to do with skill level but everything to do with desire for feedback, even when it isn't glowing. The determining factor is whether you think you can legitimately handle constructive criticism (e.g., image is oversharpened, composition is uninteresting, crop is mundane) and being voted off, which will happen to everyone but one maker.

It also has to do with time. It's a commitment to make icons on a regular basis. For one weekly entry, I found myself making somewhere between 3 and 10 icons. LIMS allow a certain number of skips because we all have real lives but it's something to consider because non-participation results in elimination eventually.

I can only speak of my experience with lantis_lims but what I envision is posting 10-12 caps for each challenge with several weeks' advance notice (for those who will be on vacation, they can make icons early and submit them early). That comm operates with only one mod, shadowserenity, to post challenges, voting, results, and comments. Participants ask to receive their comments and may elect for them to be posted publicly or privately.

shadowserenity has volunteers who help find interesting caps and make banners for the winners of each round. One or two makers are eliminated in each round, depending on how close the votes are, and two or more members' choice awards are given in each round.

I believe it would be positive enough that I'd be willing to do as much work as she does (and boy is it, what with the comment collecting!) but I'd prefer to have help if it's available.

I would love to have you participate!

basically i want to support you, because i've noticed that easily 80 percent of my sg-1 icons ended up being made by you.

so whatever it is that you do with icons, i love it. i think it's the tight closeup composition, the interesting crops and the sharpened edges of the faces and features that you achieve. i don't much like soft focus; you are all about the sharp focus.

but given that i never make icons, i know nothing about icon design, etc etc. that's my 2 cents.

i don't know a thing about what a good schedule would be. no preference.

also, what does LIMS mean?

Awww, thank you! I really appreciate the support -- and there are lots of ways to support the idea without making icons or being a mod.

One of the least time-consuming ways is as a voter -- and LIMS absolutely must have voters. Everyone has an opinion on what she does and doesn't like. Articulate people, that would be you, can explain *why* they do or don't like a particular icon. No specialist knowledge necessary. One of the reasons I enjoyed participating was that as a voter I got to finally tell makers things like, "The crop is too far away and I can't tell who the subject is!" or other forms of constructive feedback that I hoped would result in icons more like the kind I like.

LIMS stands for "Last Icon Maker Standing." It has a pool of entrants who submit an icon on a regular basis using caps provided by the moderator. Members vote on the icons they feel have the best technical merit and the least technical merit. (That is, you don't vote for the Daniel icon because it's Daniel but you might because the coloring is fabulous.)

Each time, the votes are tallied and someone is eliminated for having made the icon judged to have the least technical merit. All the participants can request their comments (publicly or screened for privacy) so they can improve. Those not eliminated go on to the next round and so on until there's only one maker left.

hmmm....I think I would be up for that...I wanted to do lantis_lims and actually joined the com but never found myself interested enough in making the icons but I know I would make them for SG-1 cause I love it more then SGA...*g*...I'll help out if you need me to and I'll pimp this over at sg_awrds for you...great idea Mish!

I love the way that comm is run and I loved the caps chosen but I'm with you, SG-1 is my True Love. It's a commitment of time and if I were to do it again, I'd want to spend that kind of time with my first love. :)

I miss iconing SG1. I don't do it much since sf_incandescent closed. I'd love to help out. :) I modded an icontest once upon a time, and I took the reins of lantis_lims for one challenge while shadowserenity was away. :)

I miss you iconning SG-1, too! I really, really miss sf_incandescent. I wasn't confident enough to participate until right before she closed it; shadowserenity had some of the best challenges I've ever seen. I enjoyed watching it just to read the challenge descriptions.

Oh yay - I would really love someone on board who knew what she was doing. I've been reading the rant communities so that I could avoid the most obvious pitfalls but an experienced hand would be very, very welcome. :)

I love both sf_incandescent and lantis_lims, my favorite thing about them other than the awesome caps is that the contests are run on a schedule. It's a surprisingly nice feeling to know someone's got things together (even when I don't ;) ).

I'd be willing to help out when time permits, but I can't make any promises.

If I thought she'd do it, I'd beg shadowserenity to run an SG-1 LIMS. I think she has a full plate, though, and Atlantis seems to be her true love. I completely understand that.

I'd love to have you participate, however it works for your schedule.

I'm selfish. I'd like to watch the icons and maybe vote, but since I don't icon myself (I lack skillz and the patience to learn how) I wouldn't be much more than dead weight. ;)

I know this will sound like bullshit but it's absolutely true: voters are *crucial* to the success of a LIMS. Voters who don't make icons are soooooo not dead weight for the comm. The whole reason I participated in LIMS was to get that feedback. I never would have subjected myself to the schedule if it weren't for that.

Voting in LIMS isn't about checking a couple of boxes. You have to explain why you didn't like an icon and why you did like another. It takes time and it's in no way a freeloader position. Everyone who participates brings to the table something crucial to the success of the community.

*reads thread*

Oh, you guys. I'm blushing.

omg I kind of miss operating sf_incandescent (it's awfully nice to have it remembered!), too, but I had to admit that I'd wandered away from iconning SG-1 and BSG heavily. Yeah, SGA is my one true love, which was why lantis_lims came into existence.

Thanks for your compliments on lantis, all :). hsapiens, I think you'd do a *great* job with a SG-1 LIMS :). Also, if you want, please feel free to borrow lantis's format and everything else etc. Also, I'd very much like for your comm to become a sister community (recently obaona created a Supernatural LIMS called likethegun_lims and I know elli quite possibly has a Sarah Connor Chronicles LIMS in the works, and both of those borrow lantis's format. I'd love for you to join that little family. Too many times I see on my flist people visiting iconrants and going on about LIMS, so I figure, "hey, let's create a safe harbour".

Okay, one main piece of advice: get other people to do the banners. After all the cap searching, putting voting up, answering comments, I think the last thing I feel like doing is making the banners. So, yeah, go with that :).

I'd be interested in participating, too! I need to make more Sam icons.

Edited 2008-04-04 05:16 pm (UTC)

You're definitely one of the best mods I've ever run across and it is always a pleasure to play in your sandbox. sf_incandescent earned its sterling reputation. I was very sad when it went on hiatus but I understood. After my positive experience with lantis_lims, I looked around at some other LIMS but found none that operated as smoothly or that had so many great voters.

I appreciate your confidence in me but I know my limitations. Thankfully, beeej is willing to co-mod and I know she's got the chops. I feel far more confident knowing there's someone involved who has done this before. I would *love* to be a sister community (if we do this). I was planning to ask once we'd been up and running for a bit because I wanted to prove that we had our stuff together before approaching you (especially when I thought it possible I'd be the only mod). I'd love to be associated with those communities -- and I'd love to steal adapt your structure because I haven't seen anything else even half as good.

Others making banners. Check. Thank you!

Okay, I am willing but very hesitant because I had horrible experiences in LIMS. I can only say what I didn't like. lantis_lims sounds like it was a much more positive experience, so maybe if it's handled right I would participate.

I entered some CSI LIMS for the same reason as you - I desperately wanted feedback on my icons. This may sound elitist, but I quickly discovered I didn't value anyone's opinion there. I didn't receive one bit of feedback that was insightful and thoughtful and told me anything I didn't already know. Also, for some idiotic reason, you were required to give criticism on your least faves, but not required to give any positive on the ones you liked, so all I got were heaps of negative thoughts. Also, I discovered that style had the same pervasive effect there as everywhere else - since my icons didn't match their preferred style, I was always voted near the bottom. I know my entries were not always the best, but one of my favorites was ripped to shreds. I obviously did not see eye to eye on what made good art in that fandom, so I left. Also, one of the maintainers wouldn't respond to any of my comments, even to give me my requested feedback. I stayed in the other LIMS a lot longer simply because the mod was supportive and kind and always left comments.

But I can imagine a community that does not share those pitfalls, so as I said, I'd be willing to give it a chance. Though I voted for the every-other week schedule because I have precious little iconing time now.

You bring up some very important points. LIMS is only as good as its voters and the time they take to analyze the technical aspects of the submissions. I got feedback at times that I didn't agree with (heh - on one icon, one comment said the image was oversharpened while another said it was fuzzy) but the beauty of having to give a reason was that it helped me see where someone was coming from in evaluating a comment. If I got 5 comments all saying the same thing, I felt I had to pay attention even if I didn't agree. In the end, I might still disagree but I was aware that other viewers saw things differently.

I've never understood why positive comments aren't required but I have noticed that's a tendency in LIMS comms. I'm guessing that some group of voters is willing to leave two reasons but four is considered too much work and so they fail to vote? I think it's a good suggestion to require positive comments, too, because it's important to know what people like about an icon. What worked.

Style is always going to play into the voting, I fear. I see no way around it. No matter how much one focuses on technical aspects, it eventually comes down to "I prefer this icon style so I'm willing to overlook this particular lack but I can't overlook it in this other icon because it doesn't otherwise appeal to me."

As someone who doesn't normally icon in the more popular icon styles, I feel your pain. I'm willing to bend some because it stretches my abilities and makes me develop my eye but I'll never be the person who makes the icons that I tend to nominate in the Artistic and Dramatic categories over at sg_awards and I do think that those tend to be the styles rewarded in LIMS. You have to know that going in, I think, to enjoy LIMS.

But you know what? If you have a bunch of friends who *don't* like the prevailing style and you convince them to vote, it's possible to redefine what the popular style is. One of the (many) reasons I had when I participated was I wanted to encourage people towards pretty coloring, imaginative cropping, and nice text work. Often, my opinion coincided with others' but it wasn't always the case.

shadowserenity had posted something in lantis_lims that I thought was insightful: the point to participating was not to win because everyone but one person was going to be eliminated. I looked at the list of participants, the voting in the first round, and *knew* that I would never make it to the final rounds. Once I wrapped my brain around entering a contest I didn't set out to "win," I was okay with knowing I would be eliminated and would receive some feedback that I wouldn't necessarily like because I'm not the elite sort of icon maker. But I did really have to think about it before I agreed. I was fortunate that the voters in that community almost always give their positive reasons, too, and so I got a balanced mix.

All of that said, I'd love to have you take another chance with us (assuming that we do this) if you're willing to give us a try. I'd also love to have you continue to offer your candid opinions because there's no way to improve (either in icon-making or in running a comm) without feedback.

I'm in for the lims and I think it is a great idea. I need more incentive to make SG-1 icons because I really love the show and this will provide it.

There are sooooo many really good SG-1 icon makers out there that this should be an interesting learning experience. With my goofy sense of humor and lack of real design skills I expect to be the first one out but I don't really care. Positive feedback is good but true feedback is better. I'm up for a challenge but already over my head.

I think you have enough help and I have zero experience but if you need more then holler.

Yay! :) There just aren't enough SG-1 icons in this world. I'm convinced of it.

It sort of depends on whether or not those really good icon makers participate, doesn't it? Although truthfully, it ended up not mattering to me when I decided to participate in lantis_lims. That group included some of my favorite makers and I just knew that I'd be out in the very first round. I was scared of that but decided that even if I were voted out first round, I'd have a learning experience. I don't think that would be your fate but something like that is unpredictable.

Thank you for the offer to help! I'm sure we'll take you up on it. As it is looking, I think there's enough interest so far to make this a real possibility.

YES. DUDE. DO IT. I actually already joined the comm because I was scoping out new LIMS this afternoon...

I love lantis_lims but I've always really wished there was a similar Lims just for SG1. SG1 came first, after all! :P

You've definitely got my support. I'll pimp this everywhere I can. Also, if you're still recruiting co-mods or banner makers and such, I'll be happy to volunteer.

Ha! Very sneaky of you. I haven't announced the comm at all. I opened it many, many moons ago because I wanted an SG-1 LIMS but then I sat on it, hoping somebody else would volunteer the idea so I could offer the comm to her. :) I've decided nobody else is going to step forward so I have to get off of my behind and do it.

lantis_lims would be the comm template, for certain. It's well-run and, I think, a lot of fun.

Yay! Thank you! And yes, recruiting is still wide open. I'm all about getting as many people involved as possible.

I am totally up for it, and I'm on the verge of getting my graphics software back up and running so the timing should be good for me -- I just can't offer to co-mod at the moment because of rl issues, but I'll definitely volunteer to help out in every way possible, and of course make icons and vote.

I voted for a weekly schedule because I think it keeps the momentum up, but I'm really equally in favor of every week or every other week. LIMS seems pretty challenging, and more icon-makers might be able to stick with it if it's every other week.

This is awesome and I'm so glad you're thinking of doing it.

Yay! I was really hoping you'd be interested. :) I wasn't aware that you'd suffered a graphics program snafu. You know, participating and voting are two HUGE things. I'm good for mods, I think. beeej has experience and firstanointed has also volunteered. I'm thrilled to have elfcat255 helping to gather caps because I love her eye. Our biggest need is going to be for participants, voters, and people to make banners.

I'm really torn on the week vs. every two weeks issue. I agree with you about momentum. In LJ-land, things seem to work better on a weekly schedule. Comms that run every other week seem far too leisurely and often have trouble generating participation. However, as someone who has participated in a weekly LIMS, I know it's a huge commitment. By the time I was eliminated, I was really sorry because I liked the challenges but I wasn't entirely unhappy to have my iconning time back to myself. And I only lasted 7 or 8 rounds, IIRC.

Sounds great... I have no experience with LIMS's (technically I'm still fairly new to iconing) but I like the idea of constructive feedback so I can improve my skills. And of course I'm up for any excuse to make sg-1 icons ;)

Yay! The more participants the better! :) I wouldn't have guessed that you were new to iconning. And it's a GREAT excuse to make SG-1 icons.

I can't say that I would definitely participate in an SG-1 LIMS, but I would certainly be very happy to know one is out there. I've been wanting to join a LIMS for a while now. I'm a little scared about it, partially because it's daunting to think about receiving perfectly honest criticism. Part of my hesitancy is the time factor involved. In short, I can't promise to participate, but I can promise to seriously consider participating. It's been quite some time since I've done and SG-1 icons.

One more comment. I, personally, would really prefer to see "old school" SG-1 more than "new school". I wasn't really that happy with the last two seasons of the show. If the caps would mostly center around the latter two seasons, I wouldn't be very interested in joining. Of course, I'm not saying that I would refuse to join if cap from S10 & S9 are provided, I just don't want the emphasis there. Does that make sense?

I won't deny that there is a certain intimidation factor in LIMS but one job of the moderators is to make certain that feedback is about the *technique* used to make the icon. So, comments such as, "image is a bit blurry and should be sharpened a bit" are acceptable but "that's ugly" are not. The point is to elicit constructive criticism, not the sort of mean-spirited stuff that gets hidden behind f-locks in rant communities.

I take your point. I, too, am most fond of Old School SG-1. I've thought a bit about the sorts of caps that we'd have to choose given the ten seasons and the shippers vs. slashers wars in the community. I want everyone who ever loved SG-1 to feel welcome and comfortable. I don't know if you've spent any time perusing the lantis_lims but I thought they did a nice job of choosing a variety of caps to represent all the characters for each and every challenge.

I had been thinking along the lines of each challenge always having at least one picture of each of the main team members (Jack, Daniel, Sam, Teal'c, Cameron, Vala). Challenges with shippy caps would also need to have slashy caps and femme slash-y caps and team-y caps, to my way of thinking. Of course, I'd want to spice it up with Janet and Hammond and Thor and the Nox and Apophis and Jonas and Adria occasionally, as well as having some caps that are scenic while some are character-focused.

Would that sort of content work for you? I'm truly interested to know. That was going to be my next round of questions if things looked good for going forward but I'm happy to talk about it now. :) I'm always open to suggestions and ideas for themes, selections, and what appeals to icon makers.

I answered yes to the lims, I never done any of them cause i never really understood them but I am willing to try. the only thing I am afraid of is the time. I have a strange workingschedule to be honest. But I am certainly willing to enter if the timing is good :)

Yay! If you have any questions about LIMS, please feel free to ask me.

What is your schedule like? What would make it easier for you to participate? We're still talking about this and haven't yet set any kind of schedule (assuming there's enough interest). My goal is to make it work for as many people as possible and I'd like to take everyone into account when we're discussing schedules.

I said yes to everything (I think). I don't really get a lot of feedback on my icons beyond "wow that's great", so I think this is a great idea. I voted for a round every other week cause it's so hard getting something together every week but I'll sure try no matter what you decide. I have a hard time keeping carter_stills on track but if you ever need help with anything just let me know :)

Exactly! And while it's quite gratifying to get those sorts of comments, it isn't the sort of thing that can help a person improve.

One thing we're committed to, whether challenges are weekly or every other week, is to have caps up and available several weeks in advance. Would it make it easier for you to participate weekly if you could, say, sit down and make icons for weeks 1, 2, and 3 all at once when you have time?

So far, every other week is winning in the vote. Two weeks is an eternity in LJ-time and I'm a bit concerned about losing momentum. I completely understand that every single week for an extended period of time can be overwhelming. I'm really torn on the timing issue. I'll go with whatever gets me the most participants. Or, you know, enough participants so that we can even have a LIMS.

Sweet idea! School is cooling off a little so, depending on when this gets to be up and running, I may have a little time to participate before going home (and being internet-less) for the summer! :D

Yay! I don't yet have a time line but We're moving ahead so quickly that it I think it might be sooner than I'd originally thought. I'd love to have you join us. :)

Internet-less for the summer?!? Isn't that prohibited by the Geneva Conventions?

Sounds like a great idea and I'm definitely in! ♥!!

Excellent! We're approaching 20 people expressing interest, which I thought was probably about the minimum number to make it work. We're already collecting caps and setting up the community. I'll come back here and comment again when we open up so that you'll know. :)

Thank you for commenting!

I'm so in, though I might have a lot of other things to do...
Anyway, I'm in, it'll be fun!

Excellent! We're working hard to set up the community, collecting caps, planning challenges, and organizing the community. I'll comment here again to let you know when we're ready.

Sounds like an excellent idea.

Excellent! We're working hard to set up the community, collecting caps, planning challenges, and organizing the community. I'll comment here again to let you know when we're ready.

I think it's a great idea! I've said yes to participating as I'd very much like the chance to improve my icon making and what better way than to receive honest feedback? I only hope RL lets me do so, hence the reason I went for every other week, :) I'd be happy to volunteer for caps/banner duty if you need the extra help, although to be honest, as I've never done a LIMS before, there are probably far better people out there for that sort of stuff than I!

sg1_lims -- *g* I'm looking forward to seeing you there! Feedback is next to godliness, in my book.

Sign-ups are here: http://community.livejournal.com/sg1_lims/718.html

We had a lot of people choose every other week -- but I have to admit I'm afraid that like so many comms that are "every other week" the momentum would be lost, people would forget, and we'd end up having a lot of drop-outs.

Our compromise is that we'll be posting caps waaaaaaay in advance. If you think you'll have time every other week, you will be able to "work ahead" and cover, say, four or more challenges in one sitting. We aren't interested in having time trials for icons; our goal is to help you make the best icons possible.

If this compromise doesn't work for you, I urge you to tell us that immediately. If it means that lots of people won't participate, we're open to changing our minds. Nothing is set in stone and it won't upset me in any way.

I would love an SG1 LIMS, I used to participate in another SG1 icontest but the comm closed. I currently run birthday_celebs so if you need any tips on running the comm i'd be happy to help you.

I really hope this idea takes off, I'm looking forward to participating.