05 May 2007 @ 12:20 pm
SG-1 10.14 -- "The Shroud"  
I'm ambivalent about this episode. The premise is cool - I liked the idea at its core - but the execution was flat. I wanted to be menaced by Daniel as Prior. I wanted to worry that maybe he really had been turned. Or worry that Merlin was in charge and perhaps he had overestimated his clever-ness. Alas, that was not to be.

Daniel as Prior was all about the cool makeup. Seriously? In close-ups, I should have been more fascinated by the menace than the white mascara he was wearing. I think partially it was the acting -- it felt as if most everyone but Claudia were phoning in the performances though thankfully RDA was better here than he was in the SGA episode -- and partially it was the structure of the episode. Flashbacks rarely work and they break the flow of a story. This felt like an episode that should build up to a "is he? isn't he?" moment. You need momentum to do that.

It would have been a lot scarier to watch Adria try to turn Daniel. Especially if we don't know that Merlin is protecting him. Or if there's some question of whether Merlin is really more cunning and sly than Adria. Then when SG-1 encounters him, we just don't know. A Prior who fails to mention the Ori death threat? Wasn't that a total give away that he wasn't really a Prior?

I was also annoyed by the team's missing several key opportunities to deal a blow to the Ori. Adria was out cold and not protected. Maybe it would be a good idea to kill her right then and there? Oh no, running off was a much better option. *sigh*

You've sent the weapon through and don't know if it worked? Maybe not closing the wormhole after sending the weapon through is a good idea? Or, if for some reason it can't be maintained, why not dial out to somewhere else? Anywhere else! Or, after the weapon has gone through, disengage and blow the gate in exactly the way that was first planned. Very sloppy plotting.

I didn't totally hate it, it just felt like it should have been...more. It was a great idea. Maybe if they'd made it a two parter they'd have had more time to develop it properly without feeling the need to collapse a bunch of the story into flashbacks? It felt like they crammed a lot into the episode at the expense of the story told.

I like Teal'c as Lie Detector. Good use of his experience in judging who's with him and who's mouthing the words -- although I feel kind of like he's becoming a prop. Need to scare someone and get him to talk? Send in Teal'c; fade to black. Need to determine if Daniel is Daniel? Send in Teal'c; fade to black. That said, I like that he gets to be something beyond the brawn. A substantive role would be even better but after 10 years, I think I can give that hope up as doomed.

I liked the S/J scenes. Those who want to ship them can read their isolation together for what they want. Those of us who prefer to see two adult colleagues/friends/teammates can see it the way we want. Some might want more but nobody comes out hating it. And thankfully, RDA seemed more interested in acting in this episode than he did in the SGA one.

Vala stood out because, as I've come to expect, Claudia Black shows up to work and boy can she act. Vala might not be my favorite character but CB is rapidly becoming my favorite actress. When they write Vala as dropping her boundaries, allowing her true emotions to come out, that's when I think I can make myself forget early Vala and just enjoy her. The Daniel/Vala show does both characters an injustice, I think, because it's a breezy cliché and the writers give in to the easy rather than write. If that makes sense. Daniel is a grouch and Vala is an irrepressible sex kitten. *yawn*

Anyhow, this was an episode that had the bones of greatness but it failed to fulfill its potential.
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nialla: Stargate[personal profile] nialla on May 5th, 2007 10:54 pm (UTC)
I'm ambivalent about this episode. The premise is cool - I liked the idea at its core - but the execution was flat.

I commented to [livejournal.com profile] justalurkr that it felt a bit "paint by numbers" in a sense. It's like TPTB were trying to put in things some fans have asked for, such as J/D banter, but they have no concept of why they were asking, nor what "banter" really means. It was like someone trying to copy a piece of art without seeing it, just being told what it looked like. There was just no real spark, for lack of a better word.

Adria was out cold and not protected. Maybe it would be a good idea to kill her right then and there?

That was rather baffling, wasn't it? Surely they're not saying that Our Heroes just can't kill her because she's "human" or because it's Vala's daughter and not Random Jaffa #12,584?

And I agree about not destroying the gate either. Why did they just sort of sit there and watch the Ori ships come through at the end, instead of trying to destroy the gate? They might not make it in time, but at least they tried, though perhaps TPTB felt that was a repeat of previous storylines. If they did succeed in destroying the Ori, it might mean the Priors wouldn't be able to access what they need to build another one.

But no, we need to have the grande finale for the Ori storyline reserved for the movie, so stupid plot holes exist to "stretch out the suspense."
ext_2780: sg-1 j/d just like that - by lyraeinne[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 5th, 2007 11:25 pm (UTC)
but they have no concept of why they were asking, nor what "banter" really means. It was like someone trying to copy a piece of art without seeing it, just being told what it looked like.

*g* You're right, really. I've long since given up on hoping for any truly meaningful scenes on this show--especially not between Jack and Daniel. I still loved their interaction because I've been starved of it for so long. *g*

But this is the show that gave us a flag scene instead of any type of meaningful interaction--not only between Jack and Daniel, but between Daniel and everyone else.

This is the show that gave Daniel memory loss so that his homecoming to the show would be anti-climatic and instead of using that storyline to do anything interesting and meaningful with the characters--the story of how they got used to each other again and re-learned how much they meant to each other--it ignored the entire scenario except for a few brief moments when it was convenient. *g*

So Jack and Daniel in the same place and actually talking to each other? Hair ruffles? *g* I don't care. I'll take it. *g*
Mish: DeeJ --  Nekkid[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 12:29 am (UTC)
gave us a flag scene instead of any type of meaningful interaction--not only between Jack and Daniel, but between Daniel and everyone else.

Hey now, don't you go knocking the flag scene! There was no reason we couldn't have had BOTH the gratuitous nekkid bits AND meaningful interaction. ;-)

I'm SO with you on the amnesia, though. That's actually one of my favorite fanfic cliches because it gives you a chance to strip a character of baggage and get who he is down deep inside. Their just tossing it aside and trotting it out (or conveniently forgetting about it) at will annoyed me to no end. I wanted to see some lingering effects, too, from being ascended. It was a great chance in canon to establish some baseline Daniel.
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 02:45 am (UTC)
Hey now, don't you go knocking the flag scene! There was no reason we couldn't have had BOTH the gratuitous nekkid bits AND meaningful interaction. ;-)

I think that flag scene was indicative of how TPTB of this show just totally did not get it. I loved that scene. *g* I'm just saying... They're view of Daniel at that point was "beefcake for the ladies" or something, and maybe they were even pandering to the slashers a bit; I don't know. Either way, I would have traded it for even one better scene with a little substance--a welcome home for Daniel, some emotion expressed... I thought that whole sequence was pretty poorly done as far as that goes.

You're right that we *could* have had both, but we didn't. I felt the same way about the supposed UST between Jack and Sam and even the whole Jack & Daniel thing. I think the show *could* have had it all, J/S UST for the shippers, a few serious friendship scenes between Jack and Daniel (because I'd prefer that and it's all about me--I'm not the hugest fan of the silly banter), and lots of teaminess and friendship between all. Instead, they felt like they had to push one point of view and squash the others for reasons unknown to mankind. *g*
nialla: Cut[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 03:06 am (UTC)
Daniel at that point was "beefcake for the ladies"

I think that was proven back when Shanks left and TPTB made comments about they were going to have a new hunk on the show, as if that was the only thing fans liked about Daniel.
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 03:16 am (UTC)
hehe Yes! But I meant in that scene in particular. I think they thought everyone would love that scene so much, and some of us did, but I also saw a lot of complaints about it for the reasons I didn't like it (even though I liked it *g*).

When I first loved Daniel, I did not even think he was cute or even particularly good looking. I liked the long-hair, shaggy look and the glasses, but it was his personality that I loved. When I first got a glimpse of what he looked like under all that hair (Fire & Water), my first thought wasn't, "Oh my, he's so cute!" It was more: "That's not Daniel!" *g* I still didn't think he was all that good looking. It actually took a while for me to totally get that part of Daniel, but I was already in love with the character for other reasons.
Mish: DeeJ -- Followed Me Home[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 04:28 am (UTC)
Despite the fact that I have since come to appreciate the Shanks in all his glory, I didn't first see Daniel and think, "Whoa! Babe!" I was smitten with him for more intellectual reasons but I'll never be sorry that MS is such a hunk.

Although, if he and CJ weren't, I could have more stopped watching the show before I found my Zen place of Pretty Worship.
Mish: DeeJ -- Followed Me Home[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 04:35 am (UTC)
Particularly laughable since they weren't even trying to take advantage of his hunkiness then. He didn't discover clothing his size and muscle shirts until post-descension. ;-)
nialla: Cut[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 04:03 pm (UTC)
They weren't trying to take advantage of his hunkiness then, but they seemed to assume that the people so upset over the departure of Daniel were just fangirls who thought he was hot. They really seemed to think just putting another "hunk" on the show would be sufficient.

Like many others have said, Daniel wasn't "hot" for the sake of his looks alone. I fell for his brains first, the pretty packaging was just an extra.
Mish: DeeJ --  Nekkid[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 04:24 am (UTC)
I don't disagree. Truthfully, I stopped paying too much attention to a lot of things that I'd really LIKE to see from this show because I gave up. I still watch for the eye candy and sometimes I get sucked into a plot or in the potential that the episode showed. But mostly, I'm here for the pretty.

I think they mostly fail to get that Daniel's appeal goes beyond his physical beauty. Not to underestimate just how attractive MS is and how much the camera loves him, but he wasn't the first Daniel and I find that Daniel just as compelling. Daniel's the misunderstood geek, the lover of knowledge, the explorer, the one who appeals to our better natures.

Some of the S/J shippers are very, very loud -- and for all I know they may even be a majority of the fandom. Not that that's a good reason to choose the course the writers did because all they did was give every fan of every stripe a reason to be unhappy.
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 05:04 am (UTC)
When I was first watching the show all by my lonesome, I didn't even notice the J/S ship, for the most part. I didn't see it as ship when I did notice it either. *g* I loved the teaminess of the show and especially the Jack & Daniel friendship, which to me was the show.

I know the shippers were a very vocal part of fandom, but I think they could have had the ship on the show without *also* destroying most of the other relationships on the show, including the teaminess, in order to have that ship. That's what I meant. I've seen other shows do it. *g* People can actually interact with more than one person. There can be moments between characters that don't have to take away from their other relationships. I wouldn't have cared a bit if they hadn't taken anything away from the show in order to add in the ship.

I think they mostly fail to get that Daniel's appeal goes beyond his physical beauty. Not to underestimate just how attractive MS is and how much the camera loves him, but he wasn't the first Daniel and I find that Daniel just as compelling. Daniel's the misunderstood geek, the lover of knowledge, the explorer, the one who appeals to our better natures.

Exactly. hehe I've since come to appreciate all that MS is--including his physical attractiveness, but that's not why I loved Daniel at first.
Mish: Sam -- Nishta Junkie[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 08:03 pm (UTC)
I think they could have had the ship on the show without *also* destroying most of the other relationships on the show, including the teaminess, in order to have that ship

I do think it would have been less polarizing if the rise in 'ship hadn't been concurrent with the fall in teaminess and the J/D friendship. Personally, I still dislike what they did to Sam's character under the guise of 'ship so I think I'd still dislike it but maybe I wouldn't be as allergic to even a whiff of it? Interesting to ponder.
nialla: Plot[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 02:29 am (UTC)
In another fandom, there was a comment made about how some fans seemed to think you had to be grateful for the carrots dangled in front of you and not complain. In my case, I see no problem with being grateful for the carrots, but I can still complain about the brussel sprouts. ;)

I liked seeing Jack and Daniel interacting again just for the sake of it, but it still felt like the spark was missing and it was done by rote. But then I've been missing Jack for years anyway, even when he was still onscreen.
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 02:49 am (UTC)
In my case, I see no problem with being grateful for the carrots, but I can still complain about the brussel sprouts. ;)

hehe I agree completely. I have no problem saying when I don't like something, which some people tend to view as one of my faults. *g* It's just that with this show, my emotions about it are already spent to a great degree. It's hard for me to care that much and I certainly don't expect to see what I'd really have liked to see. I don't even like the show that much any more. I've resigned myself to the fact that Daniel isn't and has never been who I thought he was. It's a miracle to me that I can still enjoy a little Jack & Daniel interaction, but I'll take it where I can get it, which is not the same as just accepting any little tidbits TPTB give me. hehe

IMHO, that flag scene was a big carrot, and while I enjoyed it, it *wasn't* anything near like anything I'd been hoping to see in that particular episode or any episode. As I was just saying somewhere (here? *g*), I think it's indicative of just how much TPTB didn't get it--didn't really understand the appeal of the Daniel character and, really, didn't understand the appeal of the show--what made this show different from all the others. *g* Or maybe they did understand it and just didn't care. A lot of people liked the show better in season 4 when it became more like a typical sci-fi show and less SG-1-ish.

I liked seeing Jack and Daniel interacting again just for the sake of it, but it still felt like the spark was missing and it was done by rote. But then I've been missing Jack for years anyway, even when he was still onscreen.

A lot of people felt that way. I think I may be the only one who felt they still had amazing chemistry. *g* It's different, but still Jack & Daniel to me.
nialla: Cut[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 03:24 am (UTC)
I have no problem saying when I don't like something, which some people tend to view as one of my faults. *g*

There are quite a few fans in every fandom who feel like we should stick to the "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" policy. Or even the ever-popular, "If you don't like it, why are still watching?"

Just because someone has negative comments doesn't mean they hate something. It means they think it can be better than it is, and in general, most things always have room for improvement. Besides, nitpicking can be fun. *g* But seriously, talking with other fans who point out bits I missed for whatever reason is one of the best parts of being in fandom, IMO.

I think it's indicative of just how much TPTB didn't get it--didn't really understand the appeal of the Daniel character and, really, didn't understand the appeal of the show--what made this show different from all the others.

The show had such a unique concept, one stated right there in the title -- Stargate. Instant travel to other worlds, which was quickly ditched for spaceships, just like every other sci fi show out there. There was a disparate group of individuals who became a team. And there once was a strong female character who, instead of having her boss mentoring her to help her advance in her career, decided time was better spent making doe-eyes any 13-year old girl would be envious of.
Mish: Team -- Old Style (anim)[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 04:38 am (UTC)
There are quite a few fans in every fandom who feel like we should stick to the "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" policy. Or even the ever-popular, "If you don't like it, why are still watching?"

They obviously can't grasp the concept of the Loyal Opposition. In truth, I bitch about SG-1 and I've had to adjust how I watch it but I only criticize because it has so much potential and I hate to see it fall short. If the show were utter rubbish, I wouldn't bother to tune in or spend a lot of time mentally "fixing" it.
ext_2780: sg-1 daniel[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 05:05 am (UTC)
hehe I felt this way until season 10, really. I tune in now because it's still my show and I feel a strong need to see it through to the end--a sort of misguided loyalty to it, perhaps. *g*

It really was a special and unique show, even when it wasn't. *g* There are some parts I loved like no other show and some parts I hated like no other show. *g* It's all good in the end, though.
Mish: DeeJ -- Eyeglass Flare[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 08:06 pm (UTC)
I think I actually know exactly what you mean. It answered a lot of troubles I had with standard sci fi and was such a fascinating premise. It has always had episodes that were embarrassing but when it hit the mark, it was some of the best content on television.

I am going to miss my team - no matter its composition - when the day comes and there's no more SG-1 to look forward to each week. *sniffle*
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 05:21 am (UTC)
There are quite a few fans in every fandom who feel like we should stick to the "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything" policy.

I actually read in the journal of someone on my flist somewhat recently that, "It's generally accepted in fandom that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." (The quote may not have been exactly that, but it was close.)

I don't remember who posted it, but I do remember it was someone that I like *g*, so I'm not complaining about it (and if whoever wrote it sees this, I don't mean this to be criticism), but it really surprised me. I had never heard such a thing voiced in fandom before and had no idea at all that it was generally accepted, and it really caused me to think about what I like about fandom, because what *I* like are the fierce debates where people believe in something and take a stand and defend it to the death. *g* All while being polite and respectful, of course. *g*

I think it could be that my first *real* foray into hard & heavy fandom was Dawson's Creek at Television without Pity. People there were smart and witty and highly critical of the show we all loved to bits and were extremely fanatical about. Heavy debates were frequent and there were no calls to "be positive" all the time or to talk about "nice topics." Everything was fair game from making fun of the actors to anything at all on the show. No topic was off limits.

All points of view were treated with serious respect, which did not mean someone wouldn't totally poke holes in your argument until there was nothing left of it. That was how respect was shown--someone would take you seriously and engage with you, lots of back & forth and fun! *g*

I loved it. It took me a long time and many hard knocks to realize that the SG-1 fandom wasn't like that at all. *g* The closest I found was probably OS at the time.

Just because someone has negative comments doesn't mean they hate something. It means they think it can be better than it is, and in general, most things always have room for improvement. Besides, nitpicking can be fun. *g* But seriously, talking with other fans who point out bits I missed for whatever reason is one of the best parts of being in fandom, IMO.

It's always the best part of fandom for me. :-)
nialla: Sam and the Writers[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 04:13 pm (UTC)
"It's generally accepted in fandom that if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Well, there's some truth to that. Say if I don't like S/J, I'm not going to go to a S/J forum or post in a S/J fan's journal about how awful S/J is for both characters. Whatever stirs your coffee, ya know? I have seen anti-slash folks go into slash-friendly forums just to expound upon the evils of slash though.

But my respect for "private spaces" doesn't mean that I won't keep quiet about it in general discussion of the show. I'm just not a believer in "cheerleader" forums. No show is perfect, and if you can only say nice things, there's only so much you can talk about. The key is to discuss the show -- the writing, the acting, etc. -- and not the fan personalities involved in the discussion.
ext_2780[identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 05:34 pm (UTC)
I respect private spaces, but to me that's not the same as being expected to say *only* nice things all the time, and most people seem to define "nice" as "positive."

What you describe is just trolling, IMHO. I think a few people have done that accidentally in various places where I've been in, and if it's honest, most people are respectful, but I don't really understand the reasoning behind those who do it deliberately, except that maybe it's the thrill of causing a furor or upsetting people.

I usually would read a place for a while before posting anyway, just to get a feel for the general tone and what's acceptable and what's not, what people usually talk about, etc.

OTOH, in an open forum in a general discussion of the show, I'd prefer to say what I really think. *g* I think twice about it now in a lot of places, mainly because I don't want to be the cause of unhappiness anywhere, but I actually don't really go to forums any more, for the most part.

I think LiveJournal is completely different from a privately-owned public forum, because it's not really "public" even if it is public. *g* It's a much more personal space.

It doesn't bother me at all if people come to my journal and disagree with me--usually! *g* A lot of people don't like that, though, so I take that into account, depending on whose journal it is. *g*

I'm just not a believer in "cheerleader" forums.

I believe they exist (*g* sorry, couldn't resist *g*), but I feel rather uncomfortable in that environment. *g*

On the other hand, even I can't always take an extreme constant stream of negativism. I don't begrudge it at all and I prefer an honest exchange, but there was one forum where it was too much even for me, and I *like* hearing all points of view and even speculating and worrying about what might come next. That's part of the "fun stuff" for me. There are some shows that I take more lightly, though, and I don't necessarily want to know about every horrible possibility that *might* happen. hehe

No show is perfect, and if you can only say nice things, there's only so much you can talk about.

That's true, and for me it gets very boring, very quickly.

The key is to discuss the show -- the writing, the acting, etc. -- and not the fan personalities involved in the discussion.

Exactly.

I apologize, [livejournal.com profile] hsapiens, for getting so very far off topic! *g*
Mish: Team -- Old Style (anim)[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 08:08 pm (UTC)
No, no, no! Don't you dare apologize to me! I'm reading the conversation, commenting when I have something to add, and totally loving it. Maybe some people get their panties in a wad because they can't dictate exactly how a thread goes when it's in "their" LJ but I'm not one of them.

I'm loving this!
(no subject) - [identity profile] aizjanika.livejournal.com on May 7th, 2007 12:26 am (UTC)
Mish: Team -- Old Style (anim)[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 12:07 am (UTC)
it felt a bit "paint by numbers" in a sense

Yes! That's exactly it. It particularly bizarre in light of the writing credit for Wright and Cooper.

That was rather baffling, wasn't it?

And so unnecessary -- it would be enough to see them aim a zat or weapon, fire, and have her little defensive necklace light up and protect her. There are ways to keep her alive if your story needs it but they didn't even bother. It's the little details like that that annoy me to no end because it destroys my ability to suspend my disbelief. Similarly, that the team would be sitting around the supergate, cooling their heels, when they don't know whether the weapon worked or not? Again, I just don't buy it.

I'd be quite happy to end it with the Ori. I've never liked them as an adversary. But then, I never seem to find the new Bridge Villains scary. That's a pretty damning indictment considering what a total wimp I am.
nialla: Stargate[personal profile] nialla on May 6th, 2007 02:37 am (UTC)
It particularly bizarre in light of the writing credit for Wright and Cooper.

I think they've both been watching the clock in a sense, ready to move on to something else, namely getting their foot in the door for the movie industry, which seems to be their dream. And it seems like whether they work really hard and knock one out of the park or they just slack and have plot holes you can fly a puddlejumper through, the ratings stay about the same. So why work so hard and actually get it right?

I'd be quite happy to end it with the Ori. I've never liked them as an adversary.

Unseen enemies aren't all that scary, except in scenarios where not seeing them leaves you wondering when you will and what they will do. It doesn't work in the long term. Our Heroes can't react directly to them if they're not onscreen. TPTB had the Priors being the "face of the enemy" and they were boring as hell -- something they intentionally did because they felt the Goa'uld were too campy, colorful and over-the-top, so they wanted to go in the complete opposite direction.

Take two with Adria, putting another (prettier) face on the enemy, but I never understood why if the Ori were like the Ancients, a few didn't retake human form to lead the fight instead of creating a figurehead like Adria.
Mish: DeeJ -- Fangirl Bait[identity profile] hsapiens.livejournal.com on May 6th, 2007 04:01 am (UTC)
Episodes like this make it hard to argue otherwise. Far too many huge holes. I wish they'd go on to movies and leave television for those who are in love with their current jobs. :(

Goa'uld were only campy because that's how they wrote them! That pisses me off to no end. Damnit, Stargate's scariest moment was Amaunet slithering over Sha're's back. I still get goosebumps whenever I Sha're's scream as it burrows into her neck. The whole first season they were scary sons of a bitch. And then they got kind of silly until Baal and his torture -- that was scary and horrifying. Yu was poignant and I found myself uncomfortable for feeling bad that he was dying. Heru-Ur was disturbing because Dougie is so intense. They didn't HAVE to be campy and buffoonish. And just because they represented a culture's gods at some point in the past didn't mean they stoped evolving. They didn't have to still be running around in togas or whatever revealing outfit costuming could dream up.

There was no reason that the goa'uld had to be written as campy lovers of lame and other unflattering fabrics. Alas, the multitudinous Baals seem to have turned him into a joke, too. *sigh*

I like that Adria is attractive -- I can't seem to shut up about it but I think beautiful evil is compelling because you're simultaneously drawn to the beauty and horrified because, well, you're drawn to evil. Beauty alone isn't enough though. You need good writing and good acting.