It does, doesn't it? I had to look up the peanut butter thing - I really have been fairly out of touch with the world of late - and am dismayed. I don't use Peter Pan peanut butter but I do purchase my beloved peanut butter in jars ever since I read a Consumer Reports study that showed the fresh stuff I previously bought at the health food store to have much higher aflatoxin levels than the jars do. I sure hope the cause is more related to ConAgra's practices than it is to crops. :| *is worried*

I'm no fan of salad bars or buffets or any other trough feeding method. My objections are based on not only freshness issues but also the habit others have of accidentally contaminating foods and sharing serving spoons. Yes, it offends my sensibilities because I choose not to eat meat, but it also endangers me because I absolutely cannot eat seafood products, including tuna. I've never understood eating mayonnaise salads, which I think are yucky anyway, from a salad bar because that just seems to be begging for food poisoning.

I buy the peanut butter in jars, but I don't buy something like Jif or Skippy just because it's nothing but shortening with peanut flavoring. hehe I don't really eat much peanut butter though since trying to lose weight I've been eating more than I have in my life, though I'm not sure why--trying to get more protein, I guess. I'd rather do without peanut butter than eat the shortening, though, if it came to that.

But I wonder, do the natural peanut butters that come in jars also contain more aflatoxins? What about fresh peanuts? I always worry about that, but try not to think about it too much. *g* It could be the natural peanut butter contains more aflatoxins because it actually has peanuts in it, though. *g*

I'm no fan of salad bars or buffets or any other trough feeding method. My objections are based on not only freshness issues but also the habit others have of accidentally contaminating foods and sharing serving spoons.

That's exactly what I meant. *g*

Yes, it offends my sensibilities because I choose not to eat meat, but it also endangers me because I absolutely cannot eat seafood products, including tuna.

Me too. I know a lot of vegetarians who aren't bothered by that sort of thing, but I am. Even at home, I would never stir two different things with the same spoon--meat or no meat or whatever. I get a separate utensil for each condiment and I'd never use a utensil on something uncooked and then use it on the cooked part. *g* I follow very basic food safety measures, I think, but most people that I know don't.

When it comes to food allergies or intolerance, though, you'd be surprised how many people don't understand that. Or maybe not! *g* My sister is allergic to black pepper and she's had people in restaurants and elsewhere actually lie to her. I've had people lie to me about meat or just make something up if they didn't know, and then I've paid for it later, so I've just learned not to trust certain things.

I've never understood eating mayonnaise salads, which I think are yucky anyway, from a salad bar because that just seems to be begging for food poisoning.

Yeah, they do. I never liked mayo, but some of the vegan fake mayo spreads aren't horrible. *g* My daughter likes Veganaise (SP?) or something like that. I don't really use it myself, but it doesn't seem as gross as real mayo to me either.

nothing but shortening with peanut flavoring
Yes! I was raised on Jif but now I can't understand how I ever enjoyed it. I do miss not having to stir my peanut butter first but that's really a minor inconvenience.

The aflatoxin, as I recall from the article (it has been a LOT of years), is produced by a fungus that grows in just about every peanut in the US. What it needs to grow, though, is a broken peanut and oxygen. Thus, the peanut butter that sits with exposure to air has the most aflatoxin but jarred varieties had "negligible" amounts. I try not to let peanut butter get old - not really a problem with me and my love for it - and I buy the smaller jars. Still? The carcinogenic effects are there and I'll probably die of liver cancer because I'm just not capable of giving up peanut butter.

she's had people in restaurants and elsewhere actually lie to her. I've had people lie to me about meat
Black pepper?!? Oh man, that's a tough one to avoid. I kvetch long and loud about my seafood allergy but people are unlikely to sneak that into food (thankfully!) and I feel sorry for people with allergies to nearly unavoidable things: soy, peanuts, corn...pepper. :|

I don't think anyone has ever lied to me about meat, which I'm sure means I've been lied to. I question about anything I think of, "this bean soup? does it have meat? does it have a chicken stock? a beef one? were the beans flavored with bacon or pork? does the mousse have gelatin?" and being very specific seems to get across that I'm serious. Or, they humor me by disappearing into the kitchen for a period of time before coming back out and making up whatever answer they give me. *g* I've been very surprised that "meat" doesn't mean the same to a lot of people as it does to me so it's possible for someone to answer that something is meat-free and mean it honestly but for them to be very wrong by my definition.

I don't dislike mayonnaise. In fact, I love it far too much. I've taught myself to go without or, if the application works, to use a mustard instead. Much healthier. :) I don't normally use mayo for many reasons but just thinking of the pasta and seafood and god knows whatelse lurks in anonymous white pools of the stuff at salad bars makes me a little queasy.

I never liked peanut butter when I was a child, so I just never ate it. I actually ate plain jelly sandwiches if there was no other choice. I still don't eat much peanut butter.

Thus, the peanut butter that sits with exposure to air has the most aflatoxin but jarred varieties had "negligible" amounts. I try not to let peanut butter get old - not really a problem with me and my love for it - and I buy the smaller jars. Still? The carcinogenic effects are there and I'll probably die of liver cancer because I'm just not capable of giving up peanut butter.

I remember reading about this years ago, too, but I didn't remember it exactly. My husband and my daughter eat a lot of peanut butter, so it never sits around here long, either. I just measure out 1/2 tablespoon if I have any. *g*

and being very specific seems to get across that I'm serious. Or, they humor me by disappearing into the kitchen for a period of time before coming back out and making up whatever answer they give me. *g*

I've had so many people sneer at me or just give me a really hard time for asking those types of questions. Currently, I'd just rather not eat out at all, but I will sometimes get Chinese or Thai food and then, if it's a new place, I ask specifically if it has chicken or beef broth or something like that, because sometimes they will even make dishes labeled "vegetarian" with chicken or beef broth.

And...I hate to say it, but I think that when someone asks, they go into the kitchen and wander around for a minute or two and then come back and make something up. *g* It's happened to me more than once, and I've known people who've worked in restaurants. A lot of people think "What they don't know won't hurt them..." or they even think that you're a crackpot.

I've been very surprised that "meat" doesn't mean the same to a lot of people as it does to me so it's possible for someone to answer that something is meat-free and mean it honestly but for them to be very wrong by my definition.

I was surprised by that 20 years ago, but not any more. What *still* surprises me now is how many people think that vegetarians eat fish. That pisses me off more than anything, because there are so many people out there who say they're vegetarian, but they still eat fish or they eat chicken and fish. Sorry, but that's not vegetarian. *g*

Even if people understand that "vegetarian" means you don't eat big, huge chunks of meat, they don't think the beef or chicken broth or other things related to meat count as meat, but a lot of people don't even understand that much.

And vegan? *g* Forget that. *g* If I say it means "no milk or eggs" they don't understand why I can't have yogurt or ice cream or cheese. *g* It boggles the mind.

but just thinking of the pasta and seafood and god knows whatelse lurks in anonymous white pools of the stuff at salad bars makes me a little queasy.

Me too. I do dislike mayonnaise, though. I never liked it before I became a vegan, so it was nothing to give it up, though I did sometimes eat chicken salad or something like that which probably had mayo in it. It's not something I ate often, though.

Gods, I *wish* I didn't love fatty, totally not good for me things like peanut butter and mayo. Well, peanut butter has protein but it's a hell of a lot of fat to boot. My natural inclinations are for totally unhealthy, fatty, and sweet things so I'm constantly fighting my inherent bad taste.

but I will sometimes get Chinese or Thai food
I learned the hard way recently to ask in Thai food about fish sauce. My favorite places to eat are health food restaurants or places that grok "vegetarian." It's a real treat to go to a completely vegetarian place because a-I don't have to worry in the least about cross-contamination and b-I have so many choices I hardly know what to order!

Failing that, I'm lucky to live in a large city where I have lots of options. There are a few restaurants I can't eat in but they're the exception.

they go into the kitchen and wander around for a minute or two and then come back and make something up
You're probably right. I've had to make a sort of unhappy peace with that. I was vegan for a while but I really missed the social aspect of eating out with friends and getting to enjoy their company. I know that I run the risk of people lying to me. I've made an uneasy truce with it. I'm really not happy with it and I try to go to vegetarian-friendly places...but I guess we each have to decide where our comfort line is.

(I'm not above whipping out the epi pens I now carry for the seafood allergy if the waitstaff gives me the impression they're totally blowing me off.)

Sorry, but that's not vegetarian.
Oh - you've found one of my pet peeves. Vegetarians do not eat flesh nor do they eat its byproducts. Period. Fish-eaters are NOT vegetarians. Nor are chicken eaters. That's fine; these people do not want to be vegetarians. But then they shouldn't claim they are. It really pisses me off when they do.

It's like saying you're pregnant because you've stopped using birth control. Uh, no.

My natural inclinations are for totally unhealthy, fatty, and sweet things so I'm constantly fighting my inherent bad taste.

I tend to love sweets and carbs, but I can't eat too much sweet stuff or it makes me feel sick, so that keeps it in check or I'd eat chocolate cake and cookies for every meal. *g* I'm also inclined to eat something like cereal or oatmeal instead of a meal. *g* I love crackers, too. All bad stuff, I guess.

I learned the hard way recently to ask in Thai food about fish sauce.

Fish sauce? Really? Ew!!

My favorite places to eat are health food restaurants or places that grok "vegetarian." It's a real treat to go to a completely vegetarian place because a-I don't have to worry in the least about cross-contamination and b-I have so many choices I hardly know what to order!

That would be nice, because at least you know that they understand what a vegetarian is. When we visited California, it was like a completely foreign country. I got the impression that they understood and places were much more accommodating.

Unfortunately, there are no places like that around here. The local health food store (which is really close to an hour away) used to have a lot of vegan and vegetarian-friendly foods, but over the past few years they've switched to serving more and more fish and chicken stuff and almost nothing vegan any more.

There's also a health food store near lyraeinne that used to have lots of vegan foods that were clearly labeled. They still do, but they don't keep them separate any more, which I find gross. (Did I already say this? *g* I was thinking it anyway. hehe)

I'm extremely picky, though. If I get a sandwich at Subway, I have to get my husband or daughter to order it for me. I can't stand to watch them prepare it where they have all that meat there and not knowing if they put on new gloves from touching the meat or whatever. I also tell them not to cut it because they use the same knife. *g*

I'm the same when it comes to cheeseless pizza. I tell them not to cut it because they use the same cutters. *g*

I'd honestly prefer not to ever go to Subway or get pizza out, but when we travel, sometimes it's unavoidable unless I want to never eat. *g*

(I'm splitting this in half since it was a bit too long and it's getting too late to try to edit it in any reasonable way. *g*)

Oh - you've found one of my pet peeves. Vegetarians do not eat flesh nor do they eat its byproducts. Period. Fish-eaters are NOT vegetarians. Nor are chicken eaters. That's fine; these people do not want to be vegetarians. But then they shouldn't claim they are. It really pisses me off when they do.

Exactly. I don't care what anyone eats, but people saying they're vegetarian when they're not just confuses things even more.

OTOH, I sometimes say I'm vegan, but I'm really not. *g* I sometimes consume honey which is not vegan and I'm not working to eliminate all animal products from my life. I do what I can, but I'm vegetarian and vegan mainly for health reasons. I mostly avoid honey, but it's the one thing I'm not completely freaky about. OTOH, most people wouldn't know that I have sometimes consumed honey, so I don't think I'm confusing other people. I'm careful to explain that vegans don't consume any animal products at all. I suppose it's the same thing and I'm a hypocrite, but it feels different to me. *g* Most people don't understand that whey and casein are dairy products and it rarely comes up in a conversation, so it's unlikely they'd scrutinize the ingredients of what I'm eating enough to notice if something has honey in it. *g*

I was vegan for a while but I really missed the social aspect of eating out with friends and getting to enjoy their company.

A lot of people have told me this or something similar. It's not that I don't understand, but that's not really a factor for me because I have never really liked eating out all that much. I always think that I could buy the ingredients and make it *better*--make it exactly the way I like it--for so much less money. *g* I know part of what you pay for is convenience, but it's just one of my weird things. *g* The pickiness comes into play, too, so I'd rather just make it myself, though I really don't like to cook any more--which is why I'd rather just eat Cheerios. *g*

I'm not the most social person either. *g* (That's an understatement.) I think going to restaurants or parties is more of a chore than anything else. I can enjoy it, but it's not something I want to do often and if I go for the company, I don't care about the food. I can eat before or eat after and it really doesn't make that much difference. I'm content with going out only once or twice every few years. *g* I didn't like eating out all that much even before I was a vegetarian either, so it's not that, although having a lot of bad experiences with restaurants hasn't made me like it any more than I used to. *g*

It's like saying you're pregnant because you've stopped using birth control. Uh, no.

That's not how it happens? *g*

so it's unlikely they'd scrutinize the ingredients of what I'm eating enough to notice if something has honey in it. *g*

And if it did come up, I'd be careful to explain that honey isn't vegan. *g* I told my doctor that recently. *g* She's trying to go vegan for health reasons and she was surprised that honey wasn't vegan.

I admit that honey walks the line in my mind. I knew all the reasons but chose vegetarianism for moral reasons. Honey, to my knowledge, doesn't involve death or cruelty so I couldn't get up in arms about it. In fact, I had always seen the bee/human relationship as symbiosis (as I said above) and so I couldn't find in in myself to object to it. I understand that it's an animal product, though, and rightly shunned by those who wish to walk the vegan path.

Then again? It could be my sweet tooth talking. ;-)

Yeah, when I first became vegan, there were a lot of honey debates (at least that I remember), but I think that now it's generally agreed that honey is not vegan. Bee keepers are not all that kind to the bees and many bees are killed in the making of it. Also...the way the honey is made does have some kinds of bee ick in it, according to vegans, though I can't say I actually even know how the honey is made. *g*

Then again? It could be my sweet tooth talking. ;-)

Exactly.

I actually kind of resent the way that Real!Vegans have co-opted the "vegan" term to mean an entire lifestyle like "Amish" or something. To me it's another form of a vegetarian diet. At the same time, I understand the feelings about people claiming to be vegan if they don't do everything exactly like how it seems to be generally accepted now. Like "vegetarians" who eat chicken or fish. *g*

I haven't eliminated all animal products from my life nor am I likely to. I do what I can, but I'm not obsessive about that part of. Ingesting any type of animal product (other than honey *g*)? Yes, I'm obsessive and nitpicky about that.

Part of the reason I gave up on being a vegan was the utter impossibility of eliminating all animal products and the sheer amount of energy it took to live. It's terrible to take a sort of all or nothing approach but that seems to be how I work. I still try to avoid them when I can - and I insist on buying hormone/antibiotic-free dairy - but I never wanted to give up honey. (Ah, my sweet tooth is showing...) I always viewed bees and humans as having a symbiotic relationship and I can't say that I object or think that's wrong. Yes, it's not really vegan to eat honey so I guess I ate mant vegan meals rather than ever being a vegan.

I did really try, though. I read a hell of a lot of labels of margarine (gods but I hate margarine, too) to find a single brand that didn't have whey. I found a commercial bread without whey. I made a lot of homemade soup and bread because well, it was healthy and very cheap and I was a broke student.

I'm not a party person. I don't generally enjoy them and I'm lousy at small talk. Restaurants, though, are a whole different thing for me. It's a social atmosphere, it's a couple of hours, and it's being pampered by someone else cooking, cleaning, refilling. I didn't realize how much I loved it until there were only two places I could eat out. :|

That's not how it happens? *g*
Well...they're related. :)

When we were first vegan, I made a lot of homemade soup, too. It was also one of the few ways I could get my kids to eat vegetables. *g*

I didn't find it difficult to eliminate all animal products from my diet (including honey) for the most part. Giving up Cheez-its was difficult at first, but I could never bring myself to eat them even when I went out and bought a box. *g*

I don't use margarine because of the hydrogenated oils and butter isn't good for you either, so... It was hard, though. I actually used to love that whipped butter on my pancakes. *g* Now just the smell of it (or margarine) makes me nauseous.

Back when I first became vegan, I'd already been vegetarian for a number of years and we were poor and so couldn't afford to eat out even if we wanted to and also couldn't afford packaged foods of any kind. I didn't even buy canned beans or spaghetti sauce in a jar. I already made my own of those kinds of things, so making those vegetarian or vegan wasn't difficult. Even my mother's best cake recipe was vegan because it was a depression-era cake, so I make birthday cakes for the family that, while not exactly health food, are still really good birthday cakes. :-)

Nowadays, it's actually easy to be vegan--for me, anyway, even here. *g* Amy's makes a whole line of vegan soups and also makes a dairy-free frozen burrito and frozen pot pie. I can buy vegan apple pies in my local grocery store and vegan pumpkin pies (same brand) at the health food store. There are vegan cookies and all sorts of other vegan foods even in my pitiful local grocery store and lots more in the local health food store. They even have vegan macaroni & cheese in a box. Boca Burgers are vegan and that's what my husband and son eat (husband's not vegan, but he likes them).

There's even a line of French fries (Alexia?) that don't use hydrogenated oils, though not every flavor is vegan. There's even a brand of frozen onion rings that are vegan as far as I can tell. *g* There's even a company that makes vegan marshmallows and another that makes vegan marshmallow creme. There are several different brands of vegan not!ice cream... There's even vegan instant oatmeal and all sorts of similar things.

Unfortunately, I guess, it's now easier to eat vegan without eating totally healthy. *g* I don't like to cook any more and we are not as poor as we used to be, so I can buy the bad things all the time (not the fake ice cream or the apple pies, though! *g*).

:::sigh::: I'm so lazy now.

I'm not a party person. I don't generally enjoy them and I'm lousy at small talk. Restaurants, though, are a whole different thing for me. It's a social atmosphere, it's a couple of hours, and it's being pampered by someone else cooking, cleaning, refilling. I didn't realize how much I loved it until there were only two places I could eat out. :|

Yeah, I can understand that. It was just never an issue for me, because I never liked eating out even before I was a vegetarian. I just don't enjoy getting food cooked by someone else, because it's not exactly how I would make it and I really can't eat something I think is disgusting. If you order things special, they *always* get it wrong, and I rarely want something exactly as it is. *g* I don't like to send things back either. *g*

To me the entire experience of eating in a restaurant causes a lot of anxiety and stress. I can do it, and even enjoy the company of others, but it's never going to be something I really like doing. I can remember even as a child, sitting out in the car while my family ate in a restaurant. I didn't want to go in. *g* I preferred sitting out in the car and not eating than going in the restaurant. This wasn't all the time. At an Italian restaurant where you could get pizza or spaghetti with sauce was fine and I've always liked Asian food and usually knew what to order so I wouldn't get anything gross. *g* I'd still rather get takeout than eat in the restaurant, though. *g*

I know I'm just weird. hehe I wrote about my fun experience today (yesterday?) in my LJ, but I don't know if I'll post it. It relates to this discussion, though...sort of. hehe

If I could eat just sweets and breads and drink just coffee and not be, you know, dead within a year, I probably would. My sweet tooth is frightening. When I stopped eating sugar, I ended up transferring to lots and lots and lots of fresh fruit. Invariably if they add sugar to something, I will like it more. I thought my love for Wheat Thins was a little too pronounced over something like Triscuits and sure enough a big diff? Sugar.

When we visited California, it was like a completely foreign country.
Oh yes. One of the reasons I totally love Vancouver is that ~10% of the population is vegetarian and that's a large enough percentage to have a major effect on eateries. I'm still enthralled at going to a cheap, fast food Chinese joint and seeing the vegetarian kitchen was separated from all the others and nothing was being cross-contaminated on the cooking surfaces, the utensils were separate, the plates, etc. I suddenly grokked what it meant to keep kosher. That really appealed to me.

I'm a pest, I'll admit. At Subway, I often make the preparer change gloves before making my food. I order the 6" and they slice it with the bread knife but it isn't cut again afterwards so the knife hasn't gone through meat. At least, not that I've seen. Traveling used to be so much harder before Subway so I'm grateful for their success. I used to have to go to local grocery stores while on the road if I wanted to eat.

I'll cop to loving to go out to eat. I love not having to prep and, most importantly, not having to clean up. I can concentrate on visiting with friends rather than playing host and we're all just having fun rather than working. Mind you, that's how I socialize. I don't throw parties and we very rarely go to them.

I ended up transferring to lots and lots and lots of fresh fruit.

Unfortunately, I can't eat a lot of fresh fruit because it upsets my stomach. Sometimes even bananas upset my stomach, but pretty much everything does a lot of the time. I can eat canned fruit most of the time, but, yeah...more sugar, which sucks. It really is weird, but I can eat a cookie no problem, but eat an apple and I suffer for hours--sometimes days. :-(

I'm still enthralled at going to a cheap, fast food Chinese joint and seeing the vegetarian kitchen was separated from all the others and nothing was being cross-contaminated on the cooking surfaces, the utensils were separate, the plates, etc. I suddenly grokked what it meant to keep kosher. That really appealed to me.

OMG! Really? 10% of the population is vegetarian? Wow!! Can I move there? I want to live there! *g*

At Subway, I often make the preparer change gloves before making my food. I order the 6" and they slice it with the bread knife but it isn't cut again afterwards so the knife hasn't gone through meat. At least, not that I've seen.

I'm pretty sure they use a separate knife to slice the bread, though they probably use the same knife to slice through the non-vegan breads as the other breads.

I don't like to ask for special things. That's more stressful for me than not going at all. *g*

Traveling used to be so much harder before Subway so I'm grateful for their success. I used to have to go to local grocery stores while on the road if I wanted to eat.

Exactly. Me too! I still do, sometimes. Subway isn't the greatest, but at least I can get a sandwich there.

I'll cop to loving to go out to eat. I love not having to prep and, most importantly, not having to clean up. I can concentrate on visiting with friends rather than playing host and we're all just having fun rather than working. Mind you, that's how I socialize. I don't throw parties and we very rarely go to them.

I'm perfectly happy not socializing at all, really. *g* My husband is more social and it's easier for me to have people here than to go out, so we have people here sometimes--usually just friends over for dinner. Toolman cooks for the most part. If I'm up for it, I'll bake fresh bread or rolls or something that goes with the dinner. Sometimes I have made pasta with homemade sauce and toolman makes something with meat to go with it. When we have kids over, I'll make pizza for everyone sometimes--vegan pizza for us, and regular pizza for everyone else. I make really good pizza. Of course, the last time we did that was before we moved here--and probably a year before that, so...a long time. *g* I think my son is going to invite some friends over soon, though, and I'll either make pizza or get some out.

We don't really do any of that all that often. Since living here, we've had people over for dinner less than once a year, I think, but we did have our friends over for Thanksgiving every year but this last one. I have to host an activity for the teen group every year and I suck at planning and organizing. If I have it here, toolman can do most of it and I don't really have to plan anything. *g*

Because of his job, it was a sort of obligation to host something at the holidays when we were in Alaska, so we did that pretty much every year, but this year was the first time in four years that we did that. It's a lot of work to clean the whole house. *g*

We don't really go to parties either--or at least, it's not my thing at all. In Alaska, we usually had to put in an appearance at the work parties, though. If I didn't go, toolman had to go alone, so a lot of the time I'd go with the kids (if it was a family thing) and then leave early and he'd stay a while. At the captain's house, we'd go together and leave the kids at home, but not stay too long. If they organize such things here, I never even hear about it. It's different here. People have lives outside of the base, and there aren't the same sort of expectations of us.