Oh - you've found one of my pet peeves. Vegetarians do not eat flesh nor do they eat its byproducts. Period. Fish-eaters are NOT vegetarians. Nor are chicken eaters. That's fine; these people do not want to be vegetarians. But then they shouldn't claim they are. It really pisses me off when they do.

Exactly. I don't care what anyone eats, but people saying they're vegetarian when they're not just confuses things even more.

OTOH, I sometimes say I'm vegan, but I'm really not. *g* I sometimes consume honey which is not vegan and I'm not working to eliminate all animal products from my life. I do what I can, but I'm vegetarian and vegan mainly for health reasons. I mostly avoid honey, but it's the one thing I'm not completely freaky about. OTOH, most people wouldn't know that I have sometimes consumed honey, so I don't think I'm confusing other people. I'm careful to explain that vegans don't consume any animal products at all. I suppose it's the same thing and I'm a hypocrite, but it feels different to me. *g* Most people don't understand that whey and casein are dairy products and it rarely comes up in a conversation, so it's unlikely they'd scrutinize the ingredients of what I'm eating enough to notice if something has honey in it. *g*

I was vegan for a while but I really missed the social aspect of eating out with friends and getting to enjoy their company.

A lot of people have told me this or something similar. It's not that I don't understand, but that's not really a factor for me because I have never really liked eating out all that much. I always think that I could buy the ingredients and make it *better*--make it exactly the way I like it--for so much less money. *g* I know part of what you pay for is convenience, but it's just one of my weird things. *g* The pickiness comes into play, too, so I'd rather just make it myself, though I really don't like to cook any more--which is why I'd rather just eat Cheerios. *g*

I'm not the most social person either. *g* (That's an understatement.) I think going to restaurants or parties is more of a chore than anything else. I can enjoy it, but it's not something I want to do often and if I go for the company, I don't care about the food. I can eat before or eat after and it really doesn't make that much difference. I'm content with going out only once or twice every few years. *g* I didn't like eating out all that much even before I was a vegetarian either, so it's not that, although having a lot of bad experiences with restaurants hasn't made me like it any more than I used to. *g*

It's like saying you're pregnant because you've stopped using birth control. Uh, no.

That's not how it happens? *g*

so it's unlikely they'd scrutinize the ingredients of what I'm eating enough to notice if something has honey in it. *g*

And if it did come up, I'd be careful to explain that honey isn't vegan. *g* I told my doctor that recently. *g* She's trying to go vegan for health reasons and she was surprised that honey wasn't vegan.

I admit that honey walks the line in my mind. I knew all the reasons but chose vegetarianism for moral reasons. Honey, to my knowledge, doesn't involve death or cruelty so I couldn't get up in arms about it. In fact, I had always seen the bee/human relationship as symbiosis (as I said above) and so I couldn't find in in myself to object to it. I understand that it's an animal product, though, and rightly shunned by those who wish to walk the vegan path.

Then again? It could be my sweet tooth talking. ;-)

Yeah, when I first became vegan, there were a lot of honey debates (at least that I remember), but I think that now it's generally agreed that honey is not vegan. Bee keepers are not all that kind to the bees and many bees are killed in the making of it. Also...the way the honey is made does have some kinds of bee ick in it, according to vegans, though I can't say I actually even know how the honey is made. *g*

Then again? It could be my sweet tooth talking. ;-)

Exactly.

I actually kind of resent the way that Real!Vegans have co-opted the "vegan" term to mean an entire lifestyle like "Amish" or something. To me it's another form of a vegetarian diet. At the same time, I understand the feelings about people claiming to be vegan if they don't do everything exactly like how it seems to be generally accepted now. Like "vegetarians" who eat chicken or fish. *g*

I haven't eliminated all animal products from my life nor am I likely to. I do what I can, but I'm not obsessive about that part of. Ingesting any type of animal product (other than honey *g*)? Yes, I'm obsessive and nitpicky about that.

Part of the reason I gave up on being a vegan was the utter impossibility of eliminating all animal products and the sheer amount of energy it took to live. It's terrible to take a sort of all or nothing approach but that seems to be how I work. I still try to avoid them when I can - and I insist on buying hormone/antibiotic-free dairy - but I never wanted to give up honey. (Ah, my sweet tooth is showing...) I always viewed bees and humans as having a symbiotic relationship and I can't say that I object or think that's wrong. Yes, it's not really vegan to eat honey so I guess I ate mant vegan meals rather than ever being a vegan.

I did really try, though. I read a hell of a lot of labels of margarine (gods but I hate margarine, too) to find a single brand that didn't have whey. I found a commercial bread without whey. I made a lot of homemade soup and bread because well, it was healthy and very cheap and I was a broke student.

I'm not a party person. I don't generally enjoy them and I'm lousy at small talk. Restaurants, though, are a whole different thing for me. It's a social atmosphere, it's a couple of hours, and it's being pampered by someone else cooking, cleaning, refilling. I didn't realize how much I loved it until there were only two places I could eat out. :|

That's not how it happens? *g*
Well...they're related. :)

When we were first vegan, I made a lot of homemade soup, too. It was also one of the few ways I could get my kids to eat vegetables. *g*

I didn't find it difficult to eliminate all animal products from my diet (including honey) for the most part. Giving up Cheez-its was difficult at first, but I could never bring myself to eat them even when I went out and bought a box. *g*

I don't use margarine because of the hydrogenated oils and butter isn't good for you either, so... It was hard, though. I actually used to love that whipped butter on my pancakes. *g* Now just the smell of it (or margarine) makes me nauseous.

Back when I first became vegan, I'd already been vegetarian for a number of years and we were poor and so couldn't afford to eat out even if we wanted to and also couldn't afford packaged foods of any kind. I didn't even buy canned beans or spaghetti sauce in a jar. I already made my own of those kinds of things, so making those vegetarian or vegan wasn't difficult. Even my mother's best cake recipe was vegan because it was a depression-era cake, so I make birthday cakes for the family that, while not exactly health food, are still really good birthday cakes. :-)

Nowadays, it's actually easy to be vegan--for me, anyway, even here. *g* Amy's makes a whole line of vegan soups and also makes a dairy-free frozen burrito and frozen pot pie. I can buy vegan apple pies in my local grocery store and vegan pumpkin pies (same brand) at the health food store. There are vegan cookies and all sorts of other vegan foods even in my pitiful local grocery store and lots more in the local health food store. They even have vegan macaroni & cheese in a box. Boca Burgers are vegan and that's what my husband and son eat (husband's not vegan, but he likes them).

There's even a line of French fries (Alexia?) that don't use hydrogenated oils, though not every flavor is vegan. There's even a brand of frozen onion rings that are vegan as far as I can tell. *g* There's even a company that makes vegan marshmallows and another that makes vegan marshmallow creme. There are several different brands of vegan not!ice cream... There's even vegan instant oatmeal and all sorts of similar things.

Unfortunately, I guess, it's now easier to eat vegan without eating totally healthy. *g* I don't like to cook any more and we are not as poor as we used to be, so I can buy the bad things all the time (not the fake ice cream or the apple pies, though! *g*).

:::sigh::: I'm so lazy now.

I'm not a party person. I don't generally enjoy them and I'm lousy at small talk. Restaurants, though, are a whole different thing for me. It's a social atmosphere, it's a couple of hours, and it's being pampered by someone else cooking, cleaning, refilling. I didn't realize how much I loved it until there were only two places I could eat out. :|

Yeah, I can understand that. It was just never an issue for me, because I never liked eating out even before I was a vegetarian. I just don't enjoy getting food cooked by someone else, because it's not exactly how I would make it and I really can't eat something I think is disgusting. If you order things special, they *always* get it wrong, and I rarely want something exactly as it is. *g* I don't like to send things back either. *g*

To me the entire experience of eating in a restaurant causes a lot of anxiety and stress. I can do it, and even enjoy the company of others, but it's never going to be something I really like doing. I can remember even as a child, sitting out in the car while my family ate in a restaurant. I didn't want to go in. *g* I preferred sitting out in the car and not eating than going in the restaurant. This wasn't all the time. At an Italian restaurant where you could get pizza or spaghetti with sauce was fine and I've always liked Asian food and usually knew what to order so I wouldn't get anything gross. *g* I'd still rather get takeout than eat in the restaurant, though. *g*

I know I'm just weird. hehe I wrote about my fun experience today (yesterday?) in my LJ, but I don't know if I'll post it. It relates to this discussion, though...sort of. hehe